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okay I
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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me Tony Blair standing in for my
good friends George Galloway and gatri
over the next few weeks before I begin
my next tint as a middle east peace
Envoy April Fool well I'm pleased to say
that Tony Blair will not be presenting
Sputnik hopefully he'll be on a oneway
journey to the ha
soon my name is Neil Clark and I will be
orbiting the world with Sputnik over the
next few
weeks well it finally happened this week
a full 279 days after the British people
voted by 52% to 48% to leave the
European Union in a national referendum
prime minister Theresa May sent off
article 50 the EU getout Clause to
Brussels she described it as a
historical moment from which there can
be no turning back Nigel farage
celebrated brexit day in typical Style
with a pint in the pub but is it really
game over for the remain camp with
powerful forces still opposed to it
could brexit yet be derailed either in
Parliament or with fresh legal
challenges and what would the political
repercussions be if the government can't
for whatever reason deliver the clean
brexit that milli of Britain's voted for
drawing me now to discuss these very hot
issues is the publisher and editor of
the politics first magazine Dr Marcus
Papadopoulos Marcus welcome on board the
Sputnik it's a pleasure to be on here
thanks very much so what happens next
we've got article 50 finally sent off
and now we've got two years of
negotiations haven't we this is a
pivotal time for Britain the UK economy
is now in unchartered Waters and no one
really knows what's going to happen to
Britain in a post brexit world uh we
have to give credit to Theresa May she's
stuck to her timetable she did say late
last year she would invoke article 50 at
the end of March and she has done that
but uh as I said we hear experts on both
sides the brexit side and the remain
side saying different things we hear
from the remain side that it's going to
be a disaster there will be an imminent
recession and we hear from the brexit
side that there is this golden future in
store for Britain I suspect the answer
will be somewhere in the the middle well
the pound has gone up this week isn't it
after article 50 was finally sent I mean
how much can we read into that Marcus I
don't think we should read too much into
that uh the there's lots of fluctuations
regarding the pound and we saw that in
the immediate aftermath of brexit last
year we've seen the pound go up and go
down the real crucial period will be in
the next two years let's see how the
pound fars how how the pound FES over
the next couple of years because then
that would be an indication during that
period of time to see if foreign uh
investors in this country will actually
remain or if they will go David Cameron
and George Osborne last year attempted
to bully and bludgeon uh the British
people into voting to remain by saying
that uh in the immediate aftermath of
brexit there would be a recession a
terrible recession now of course that
was a gross uh exaggeration but at the
same time when we hear uh from the
brexit camp about a golden future in
store we have to seriously question that
what does a golden future actually mean
because at the moment Britain is plagued
with problems we have energy prices
which are constantly going up we have
train faires which are constantly going
up 4 million children in Britain live in
poverty one of the highest levels in
Europe so what does a golden future mean
I think what it comes down to is we have
heard people from the brexit camp and
the rain Camp make Grand statements but
unsubstantiated statements and the
politics of all of this how's it going
to pan out in Westminster we know the
labor line the labor this week here
starma said there's going to be these
six tests that the labor party going to
hold the government to and they would
only vote for the brexit deal if it goes
along with those six points uh labor is
is quite split on this isn't it well in
theory this is a great opportunity for
the opposition a great opportunity for
labor and Jeremy Corbin however the
labor party or more specifically the
Parliamentary labor party is beset by
problems there is an there is a civil
war going on in Westminster at the
moment and we saw that hours after
brexit last year when there was a real
opportunity for labor to say to the
country uh this is who we are this is
what we believe in this is how we want
to implement it please listen to us but
instead there was an attempt to
overthrow Jeremy Corby so they blew it
last year and uh nearly one year on
we're coming up to nearly the first
anniversary of the referendum and labor
hasn't really changed Jeremy Corbin has
tremendous problems to have to deal with
and I think he is trying to appease the
Parliamentary labor party which of
course is the uh is the threat to his
leadership the uh the threat to his
leadership does not come from the
Grassroots it comes from the
Parliamentary labor party so he is
trying to tame them he's trying to keep
uh or trying to create some sort of new
Unity at Westminster but it's not
working however on the other hand we do
need to be uh we need to be fair uh what
people say um in opposition doesn't
necessarily mean they will stick to that
when they become for example the leader
of the opposition or when they become
Prime Minister we saw that if William ha
prior to the 2010 general election he
was one of the most vly anti-eu T MPS he
becomes foreign secretary almost
overnight he becomes Pro so much so that
conservative backbenches start referring
to him in a derogatory way as the
Foreigner yes absolutely and what about
the United Kingdom where you know
there's a real threat Now isn't there of
a break of the UK if if brexit does go
ahead with Scotland to talk about a
second referendum there how's that going
to pen out and of course Northern
Ireland as well where we've got Shin
coming out very strongly in favor of EU
membership well the irony of course is
that uh British foreign policy for
decades now has created turmoil around
the world and has resulted in numerous
countries breaking up for example
Yugoslavia so it could be now that
Britain actually faces the distinct
possibility of breaking up or collapsing
how you want to word it and of course
the first one in the union could very
well be Scotland because Scottish people
are starting to realize that in the
immediate aftermath of Britain
withdrawing from the EU something like
880,000 jobs in Scotland would be lost
and that's just in the immediate
aftermath what will happen six months
after or a year after I think in regards
to Northern Ireland um that's not the
same because we have about a million
Protestants in norn Ireland who of
course are overwhelmingly unionists in
the Cath Catholics are still in the
minority so I don't think there's any
real chance of the north V voting to
reunify uh with the Republic of Ireland
with the South however the day could
come when the Catholics or will come
when the Catholics are the majority and
that is when Northern irelands could
vote to reunify with their brothers in
Dublin bearing in mind what's at risk
and the fact that UK could uh could fall
apart because of this and bearing in
mind the very powerful interest against
still against brexit we're talking about
people like Sir Richard Branson
who's forming this group as need to
fight brexit our friend Tony Blair who
is campaigning against it Peter
mandelson a lot of establishment people
don't want this to go ahead could it
still be derailed I think history has
shown Neil that anything is possible and
anything is possible in politics who
would have thought that uh brexit would
happen who would have thought that
Donald Trump would become president so I
think it would be uh only a fool would
say at this moment in time that uh
brexit will be implemented I think we
have to be very very cautious because
there are some very powerful figures who
are opposed to it industrialists and
city of London absolutely multinational
companies multinational companies and I
think we have to be fair that uh
Britain's membership of the EU is not a
black and white issue I personally do
not like the European Union for
ideological reasons and foreign policy
reasons ideological because it it
supports privatization which I think is
uh deadly to a country in particular
poorer countries and foreign policy
because what the European Union did in
regard to Yugoslavia Libya and Ukraine
of course Ukraine and uh and now Syria
but on the other hand I do believe the
wealthy countries in the EU actually do
benefit so when people say that uh this
is a this a revolution in process I
think that really should be kept to
Hollywoods but if brexit were to be
blocked Markus by whatever means legal
or or by Parliament then surely there'd
be the public the public reaction to
this would be so Furious A revolution it
would have here going by consecutive
opinion polls which have been held since
last uh summer that uh a significant
percentage of people who voted for
brexit now regret it so we can't say
with certainty that most people in
England are actually in favor of Britain
leaveing the European Union but if
somehow brexit was derailed will there
be protests on the streets in central
London outside Parliament undoubtedly
but there is no history in Britain to
show that the British people are a
revolutionary minded people that they
have what it takes to stick it out um so
I don't believe there will be a
revolution and if brexit doesn't happen
I think there will be a lot of protests
but they will simply die away issue this
might be the issue this could just be
the straw that broke the camels back
because not just about brexit but about
the fact that people will feel cheated
whether you're for or against you know
we had a referendum 52% voted to leave
and if by some means that wasn't uh
didn't happen then people right rightly
are going to feel cheated in the
Democratic process that they've been
lied to or or or or let down I think the
the British people they spoke last
summer um though they spoke by very very
slim uh majority so if brexit doesn't
happen undoubtedly a lot of the people
who voted for brexit will feel cheated
but we have to also take into
consideration the British mindset and I
don't want to generalize but the British
people are known to moan about a lot of
things but the weather we about the
weather but we don't act upon anything
we moan about the increase on the 1st of
January every year of train fairs though
we don't do anything about it we moan
about the energy prices going up
consistently but we don't do anything
about it I mean they are real serious
issues which are causing millions of
households in Britain serious problems
but no real action is taken by the
British people we could renationalize
them now we're out of the EU or when we
are out the EU would be easy wouldn't it
this is the left wi case exit case yes
but that is not going to happen under we
could re no no but but the hope would be
that if there were to be a different
government coming in they would be a
more easy for them to renationalize the
railways get our ra fares down I think
that was the main argument for lexit
really wasn't it that economically yes
the government would be able to change
our economic system but that all depends
on a labor government coming to power
and it doesn't seem uh possible at this
moment in time that Jeremy Corbin will
win the next general election so that
means there's a distinct possibility the
conservatives will be in power
indefinitely and if Scotland gets his
independence then it will be very
difficult to see how labor could ever
form a government uh at Westminster
again because it means labor would have
to win seats in the South well only Tony
Blair did that by making uh the labor
party essentially another conservative
party certainly be very hard for them
wouldn't it but isn't there the biggest
danger of all perhaps if we have a kind
of fudged brexit the sort of British
compromise that doesn't please anybody
yes that could cause a lot of confusion
in Britain and I think a lot of foreign
investors uh would feel somewhat
perplexed in that sort of scenario I
think an investor wants to know one way
or the other way it's either good news
or it's bad news if it's bad news they
can work on it if it's good news they
can extend on that but in the Middle
with uncertainty that's how uh Britain
could lose a lot of its foreign
investment so it needs to be implemented
it's either implemented or it's not not
in the middle absolutely well thank you
very much Mark it's been a great
discussion we've got two more years of
this to go so I'm sure you'll be on here
again on the spotnick what's going on
thank you very much thank you very much
don't go away because coming up next
after the break we'll be discussing
Yemen welcome back to Sputnik with me
Neil Clark standing in for Georg and
gatri don't mention the war that line
from the classic 1970s sitcom Faulty
Towers sums up much of the mainstream
coverage of the appalling terror attack
in Westminster
recently there have been plenty of
coling es from pundits on what we need
to do next but it seems that questioning
British foreign policy in particular in
relation to the series of regime change
Wars against secular governments in the
Middle East and how this is directly led
to the rise of Isis remains a taboo as
does the backing the West is given to
radical jihadists in Syria and the close
and cozy relationship we have with the
Kingdom of Saudi
Arabia Instead The proar Establishment
always eager to point the finger of
blame at someone else look for new
scapegoats the very latest being the
encrypted Messenger Service WhatsApp
which has earned the wrath of Home
Secretary Amber Rudd the same Amber Rudd
incidentally who sat for many years on
the political Council of the proar
neoconservative Henry Jackson
Society to discuss the contradictions
which lie at the heart of British
foreign policy in the soal war and
Terror I'm joined Now by Katherine
shakam the director at The shafner
Institute for Middle Eastern studies and
the author of the tale of grand
resistance Yemen the wahhabi and the
house of saoud Katherine welcome on
board Sputnik right thank you very much
for having me the hypocrisy really is
off the scale isn't it from the British
government and the political
establishment let's think back that less
than four years ago the same British
government wanted us to bomb Syria to
bomb the Syrian government which was
fighting against Isis and al- nazra
front and other terrorist groups and uh
now this same government is is alarming
us about the threat of radical Islamic
extremism and yet they were on the side
of these people uh they are they are
still on the side of these people in
Syria and elsewhere now it's very
interesting because it's a kind of a
two-speed policy here where when we're
talking about the midle east in Syria um
as you mentioned then you know suddenly
we have to uh fight you know terrorism
we have to address the issue of
counterterrorism we have to you know do
something about regime change which
makes no sense whatsoever because
against secular governments exactly
because technically speaking president
bash Assad has absolutely nothing to do
with terrorism I mean he's not the one
who's promoting it he's not he's the one
who's fighting it uh with the help of
Iran Russia and um hisbah so you would
like to think that Britain would support
a government who's actually actively
we're doing the very opposite aren't we
trying to get rid of the Syrian
Government tried that for many years
exactly but then something very
interesting happens is that when uh a
so-called mate uh cross over the border
and comes to to crash in London or in
the UK or somewhere else in Europe then
he becomes a dangerous radical that we
need to deal with and whatever crimes
they commit is a crime against Freedom
everywhere which I found very
interesting because it doesn't seem to
bother the British government when it
happens in the Middle East and they're
okay fing them and calling them
moderates slapping you know different
euphemism or labels to them uh but when
it comes crashing against their people
and and horrible crimes are being
committed against their Nationals uh
then you become an islamist problem but
and they the one funding the islamist
problem but actually aligning them
themselves with the likes of Saudi
Arabia Qatar Turkey um and other I would
say um you know Grand war criminals and
and Grand radical maker or architects of
Terror we know this to be a fact it's
not it's not you know uh a fairy tale
anymore U they are proof they are you
know it has been documented um you know
this is something while we're doing this
why why is the British government on the
one hand condemning so-called Islamic
extremism radicalism at home yet is
supporting it in Syria has done for a
number of years yes Libya as well of
course when Muhammad Gaddafi said that
the West Was lining up with Al-Qaeda he
was ridiculed but we know that was the
case so why are we doing this why are we
backing these people against these
secular government what what's the sort
of end game what's this all about I
think there's many answers to this but
the first thing I would say is access uh
and I'm talking about geopolitical
access in that the Middle East um is
very interesting geopolitically from a
military standpoint uh where countries
such as you know the US Britain um the
UK and others would like to have a
strong footing in the Middle East to be
able to project their own policy and
continue to have some kind of a remnant
of imperialism um if you want to call it
that and then of course there's the
issue of natural resources and access to
Natural Resources when you look at Iraq
Syria um you know and to an extend bahin
and Yemen and Libya of course um and
Egypt now because Egypt is on the firing
line uh you need to understand that you
know they there are billions to be made
in terms of you know access to Natural
Resources not just oil but we're talking
about gold and minerals and and other
things Afghanistan as well um so you
have to compute this and then of course
there's now the you know this idea that
we starting to to kind of wrap oursel
our mind around where Saudi Arabia yeah
you know the West now Western Capital
are actually promoting Saudi Arabia's
agenda in the Middle East acting I would
say a proxy for Saudi Arabia not the
other way around anymore um helping them
manifest a new reality in the Middle
East by funding propping uh aiding
abating and and offering cover when it
comes to the media to the war crimes is
committing in the Middle East and Yemen
how does that fit in the war in Yemen
how does that fit in with this General
so-called war on terror and the
relationship with Saudi Arabia we don't
hear too much about it do we in the
British media comparing to what we saw
about Aleppo and the claims of genocide
going on we had to intervene in Aleppo
because the syrians and the Russians and
yet in Yemen we've got a humanitarian
catastrophe going on haven't we you WR
book about this we do yes I did I did um
the thing is with Yemen it's a very
complicated Beast because it actually
exposes the Western hypocrisy in that uh
we know we cry often I mean some some
media have come Channel 4 did
documentary a few months back crying
over the famine in Yemen which is a
reality and yes we should cry uh but
who's who's engineering that famine is
the UN is Manning a humanitarian
blockade which is illegal uh but they
still doing it anyway and then they
crying calling for funds to be released
to the yemeni people which is fair
enough but then why are you Manning a
humanitarian blockade in the first place
because Saudi Arabia ask for it and the
problem in Yemen is that Yemen was not
supposed to be a long War uh but then it
turned out to be a long drawn out War um
and then it exposes the Western agenda
and of course Saudi Arabia war crimes
and the the latent um genocide that
they're committing against the yemeni
people Yemen is a blueprint for wahabism
um the Saudi Arabian government is
trying to imprint itself on Yemen on the
Arabic Peninsula trying to again
manifest a new reality and essentially
buy you know Yemen to its wahhabist
agenda and we ought to be very very
scared because if you consider that you
know we've seen how you know a Jordanian
pilot was burned alive how many people
have been you know have seen their head
chopped off women have been sold to
sexual exploitation well Saudi Arabia is
doing in Yemen is even worse because
they are genociding an entire people you
talking about 26 million people now um
that have been ear Mark for death and no
one is saying anything it's fascinating
isn't it when you think of the liberal
newspapers but paper like The Observer
Etc columnist like Nick Cohen who always
calling for intervention against the
West official enemies over war crimes
Etc or genocides and yet
these people have been very silent on
Yemen haven't they they they their
silence I think speaks volumes they they
don't want an intervention there to save
lives it seems oh no they don't and uh
quite the opposite it's quite
astonishing isn't it that the
humanitarian the great humanitarians uh
haven't got a thing to say about it no
nothing but the thing is if they were to
actually speak speak you know against
the crime which are committing in Yemen
uh they would have to speak directly
against Riyad and it's wahhabist regime
and this is something that they're not
prepared to do uh for very obvious
reason I mean money is flowing towards
Western capitals um the Saudi government
is buying billions worth of weapons uh
and of course you know Britain and other
capitals do not want to lose the cash
care I would say so of course they quiet
and you know who cares about Yemen Yemen
is a poor country that is standing up
against wahabism um we they don't want
to make too much noise about this
because then you would actually sit them
on the wrong side of History qu you know
openly they don't want to do this they
don't want to admit to guilt and you
can't have this argument that uh you
know Prince Salman went to Washington um
I think it was about two weeks ago
accusing Iran of promoting Terror but
really we know that wahabism is not a
product coming out of Iran because of
course that would be counterproductive
to to Iran which is you know represents
Shia Islam 90% Shia why would they
create a monster that thinks you know
they Annihilation it would be ridiculous
and of course we know that you know
fting come from Saudi Arabia that they
are being trained by Saudi Arabia um and
and being armed with Western men weapons
um so I think it's all just about
creating this cover and trying to just
weave ridiculous narrative around
people's ears to try to put them to
sleep it's not working anymore so what
can be done about this I mean you know
we know what's going on you you you've
said that Saudi Arabia is playing a key
role in this uh there are some people
who would argue that Saudi Arabia is
actually a proxy for the West the other
argument you've argued that actually
it's the Saudis pressurizing the West if
you like to go along with this yes we're
selling them weaponry and making a lot
of money from it well I think the Saudi
Lobby has gained a lot of influence and
the West has kind of ered at its own
power and as basically acting like I
said proxy Coincidence of Interest here
between Saudi Arabia the US Britain
Israel yes in targeting Shia countries
and Shia and secular governments in the
Middle East and backing Sunni radicalism
and wahabism well so everybody if you
like in that Alliance that rehad uh uh
Washington London sort of Alliance got
an interest in this yes no they do but
were they really trying to do because I
think we need to be careful when you
talk about wahabism has nothing to do
with sun Islam this is the story they're
trying to tell you're trying to to
create this sector and div between Sun
and Sh Islam which doesn't exist by the
way it's it's again it's a fairy tale so
but it's it's very interesting for them
to just divide and conquer because then
you know it's it's been the age of the
Imperial strategy is it when the British
set up Saudi Arabia in the first place
part plan to stop Arab Unity and coming
together exactly so while sun and Sh are
arguing over ridiculous uh you know
theology called you know um whoit
technical the taking over and imprinting
themselves onto politic and religious
religion U and whatnot and it's
dangerous uh but of course you know if
you want a solution it's very simple you
need to to realign uh foreign policies
and actually choose your friends a bit
more carefully not you know not not call
SA Arabia which is a grand war criminal
regime a friend of Britain or a friend
of Washington if the Saudi Lobby is so
strong we all know about our
relationship with the US is it likely to
happen there going to be a bit of a a
sea shift isn't there for Britain to
change its foreign policy perhaps Jeremy
Corbin could offer some hope of that or
in the labor party there might be a
shift there which is why he's coming
under such attack possibly he has
criticized Saudi Arabia hasn't he yes he
did but I think I mean will come a time
where you know Britain and others uh
will need to decide um you know what to
do in terms of their future and National
Security is at risk when you think about
it when you think about what happened um
you know uh at Parliament this kind of
attack or really a Harbinger or or maybe
I would say a warning of what is to come
if we allow for wahabism to further kind
of embed itself of
course it's all about YouTube the Home
Secretary would rather focus on internet
providers technology it's techy and not
focus too much on the relationship with
Saudi Arabia or oil issues or or United
States foll United States it find a
culprit away from the real issues and
try to to get public attention directed
over there while you know something is
going on over here it's always the same
technique that they're using but I I'm
I'm thinking that people now are
actually quite awake um and are
realizing that I mean it is all a lie
when you look at Syria think Syria
really kind of like tore a whole in the
narrative uh it has last for so long
that people can see the truth coming out
to the surface now uh it's interesting
and I think Yemen will play a role as
well in in really shifting this idea
that Iran is a problem or that you know
um that there is there is no real um
Islamic problem it's a wahhabist problem
when we wake up to that and realize that
wahhabism doesn't speak for religion
anywhere and is actually just a
political construct of fascist system
then maybe we'll get somewhere well
let's hope so
great thanks so much for coming on the
spck my pleasure well unfortunately
that's all we have time for today I've
been Neil Clark standing in for George
Galloway and gatri and as George would
say it's been marvelous